Curse

Bryant Again · Aug 11, 2009, 02:51 AM // 02:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by MisterB

No need to get defensive. Your argument and your question are not with me, but with ArenaNet, as it is their game. Discuss it all you wish.

I am simply not optimistic of any forthcoming change or nerf given the fact that the skill was buffed in the first place. Apparently, ANet feels easy, permanent Shadow Form is A-OK.

That's why this thread is here. If we can change Ursan Blessing, what can't we change?

UnChosen · Aug 11, 2009, 03:05 AM // 03:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

That's why this thread is here. If we can change Ursan Blessing, what can't we change?

They also just left DoA to rot with no one except for trio farmers....I rather that not happen to UW and the rest of the game, tyvm.

Bryant Again · Aug 11, 2009, 03:43 AM // 03:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnChosen

They also just left DoA to rot with no one except for trio farmers....I rather that not happen to UW and the rest of the game, tyvm.

Farmers don't care about the area, just the profit. If that's the reason it's currently populated then I don't see what's lost.

dragonfang666 · Aug 11, 2009, 03:53 AM // 03:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnChosen

They also just left DoA to rot with no one except for trio farmers....I rather that not happen to UW and the rest of the game, tyvm.

The Ursan nerf affected UW and especially FoW in addition to DOA initially. If SF were nerfed you may not complete the run in 45 minutes but you could still complete a quad run in 1.5 hours with no perma, probably less. Some ppl will QQ but you can still hit times comparable to most Ursan groups without SF.

Targren · Aug 11, 2009, 04:11 AM // 04:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnChosen

Where did you get 95al?...I might be missing something, but sins have only 70 base armor the last time I checked.

Can't speak for others, but if I'm playing a Sin and not using SF (yes, some of us do both!), Critical Agility is pretty much stapled to my bar. Poster was probably assuming r10 sunspear (+25 armor)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Farmers don't care about the area, just the profit. If that's the reason it's currently populated then I don't see what's lost.

So it's better if no one plays it rather than farmers play it? So your entire argument is based on spite and vindictiveness. Good to know...

Bryant Again · Aug 11, 2009, 06:15 AM // 06:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Targren

So it's better if no one plays it rather than farmers play it? So your entire argument is based on spite and vindictiveness. Good to know...

Way to assume far, far too much based on very little.

Although I'll admit, I don't think the farming style should exist. I don't care if people play it, rather that if ANet balanced the areas properly that it wouldn't be there.

I'm also of the opinion that any player of any skill level should be allowed to see the area. This isn't done via giving them totally imba skills and mechanics but rather creating a new difficulty setting, preserving the difficulty and integrity for those who want to test their abilities to the max on the hardest setting.

If the area is only being populated by farmers using a very specific build, then it needs a looking at - and yeah, the UW is designed pretty poorly with very little diversity in mobs. Then there's the totally asinine and now useless "entrance fee", something which I felt was pointless from the start.

Kashrlyyk · Aug 11, 2009, 06:15 AM // 06:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Just making sure everyone reads this.

Since this thread is simply going batshit crazy, I'm going to ask two questions:

1. Why shouldn't Shadow Form be nerfed?

2. Why should one person be able to solo an entire area tailored for 8?

Why shouldn't Protective Spirit be nerfed?

Most people here saying that permanent invincibility is bad, seem to have no problem with monks and eles being permanent invincible. Both of them even get easy infinite energy too.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sarevok Thordin

I'm guessing the SCers (and some PvErs in general) can't cope without an "I win" button.

Do you have anything valuable to add to the discussion or will it only be stupid and arrogant assertions?

Bryant Again · Aug 11, 2009, 06:18 AM // 06:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kashrlyyk

Why shouldn't Protective Spirit be nerfed?

Are you assuming that I feel that SF is the only problem with PvE?

Shasgaliel · Aug 11, 2009, 08:11 AM // 08:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kashrlyyk

Why shouldn't Protective Spirit be nerfed?

Most people here saying that permanent invincibility is bad, seem to have no problem with monks and eles being permanent invincible. Both of them even get easy infinite energy too.

I think they once said that they would not touch protective spirit, I remember vaguely some discussions from 2006... Cannot find link though

Most "invincible" solo builds are based on enchantments. So maybe instead of changing the enchantments as such more enchantment removals (or more severe ones) can be added to the overfarmed areas?

Spiritweaver · Aug 11, 2009, 08:30 AM // 08:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnChosen

Where did you get 95al?...I might be missing something, but sins have only 70 base armor the last time I checked. All those armor insignia takes away HP from the sin, making him pathetic against armor ignoring damage. Either way...warrior still have 20 extra armor against physical plus a huge selection of stance and skills to improve durability.....sins have only one that is decent and can be stripped. And ya, people do play warriors instead of sins, and alot of people from PvE and PvP agree that sins are far inferior to Wars and Dervs in all shapes and forms.

You answered your own question.

Quote:

Or use a derv with their OWN superior defense enchants + covers, or a war that doesn't even need enchantments....the monks' enchantment have better uses like defending the backline perhaps.

So your basically saying your frontline should never need protecting? What's a simple Protective Spirit? Any half decent Assassin will cover Critical Agility himself, any half decent Monk will still cover the Assassin. Dervishes aren't that great. They only have 70al and lack Critical Agility. An Assassin can pack a Scythe, hit for big numbers, and still maintain a high armour level.

Quote:

Wars and Dervs can also use skill for more damage you know....and their attacks are generally more effective than sins. Wounding strike anyone? Not to mention if the sins gets interrupted they're stuck doing nothing for X sec. And I rather NOT save a sin that rush in, get his critical agility stripped, wasted half my energy to prot him, and then blame me for not covering his enchant and save his ass. I have other squishy casters to worry about. I've seen Wars and Dervs where their HP never drop below 80% and still do nice damage, can't say the same for sins.

If an Assassin is just rushing in he's a bad Assassin, period. Wounding Strike can also be used by a Scythe Sin. If an Assassin is remotely good interrupts should never be an issue.

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

That's a ridiculous argument. If you bothered to read the next line, I already stated why.

"This is a game, everything is a luxury. You don't NEED anything. There is nothing essential in the game, not max armor, not max weapons, because Guild Wars itself isn't essential. "

Anyway, this is a almost completely irrelevant topic to begin with.

GG contradicting yourself. You QQ like you need ectos to play the game then try and counter someone else by saying none of it's essential.

Make your mind up.

Avarre · Aug 11, 2009, 11:00 AM // 11:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kashrlyyk

Why shouldn't Protective Spirit be nerfed?

Most people here saying that permanent invincibility is bad, seem to have no problem with monks and eles being permanent invincible. Both of them even get easy infinite energy too.

PS isn't what makes them permanently invincible. Prophecies 55 builds had high regeneration but had limits to physical tanking. What really made monk farming ridiculous was the synergy of SoA (and SH for 55s) with PS. The sheer ease of PS/SoA (not to mention SB) is something that you can hardly overlook when condemning SF.

Chocobo1 · Aug 11, 2009, 11:11 AM // 11:11

600 farming is pretty strong, but you have to take a smiter to bond you. So at most, you can have 4 people 600ing in one team, unlike the 8 for SF. SF has 3 skills for invinibility and then still has 5 avaliable for killing. A 600 has to devote the entire bar to it to stay alive.

Avarre · Aug 11, 2009, 12:03 PM // 12:03

This is true, SF is far stronger than 600/55 builds. However, the 55 build didn't need the monstrous buff that NF provided, which is really rather questionable as for how easy it has been made (completely removing the necessity for timing Bonetti's/DF heals, etc). SB was nerfed for a reason, after all - you can't use the invincibility argument without taking notice of all mechanical immunities to damage.

upier · Aug 11, 2009, 12:09 PM // 12:09

This is something that is discussed in the SF-thread in Campfire, but since the clientèle is different, I figured I might as well start a shitstorm here also.

First of all, some basic remarks.
Players represent every individual that is in this game.
PvP is of no interest to this discussion.
I would divide the players that do interest us into two teams - "players" and "farmers".
Hence the quotation marks. "Players" and "playing the game" represents players and a game style that does NOT include farmers/farming.
A "farmer" is a player that puts maximizing their profits above all else, while a "player" is a player that has other priorities. While the activities they do will sometimes coincide - there is still going be a difference in how they are performed. For instance a farmer will do FoW, not only with the character that is best suited for the job, but also with the build that works best so that they can maximize their profits, while to a "player" it might be more important to do the area in question because they enjoy the area or they enjoy the guy that they are using, or they want the HoM statue, ... Profit, while still playing a role, is not as important as are other reasons to play with that guy in that area.
And that is why I feel that the game's priority should be in satisfying the "player". While this does not mean that everything should be super duper easy, it definitely means that if a player is wiling to improve, he should not be locked out of specific content for not playing the game in a farm-like manner - where only certain options work otherwise the player is just out of luck.

The core of the issue is that we are dealing with an old game, that is not getting any new content and a game where titles are the current end-game content.
While titles are a bit limiting, I don't consider the idea of titles to be bad in it's core. A title such as protector is a very decent title since it promotes players exploring interesting content.
The problem is that some other titles aren't designed so nicely. To make it worse, some of the titles, or as I have said the game's end-game content, are actually completely out of touch with the game itself. The only way to do this end-game content, is to not "play" the game, but rather farm it, because the increased way of obtaining resources through farming is the only way that is in touch with this content. There is no way that "playing" the game will provide you with enough resources to do this content.
Which means that farming is used as a crutch to bypass some moronic design ideas. This means that once the current super dooper cookie that is breaking the game is trashed, players will either stop doing the end-game activities in this game, leaving with nothing to do, or they will move onto the NEXT super dooper cookie that will break the game again.

And that is why I'd LOVE for A.Net to take a few moments and look at what in this game can be achieved in a manner that "playing" the game supports. Otherwise we'll just move onto the next degenerate thing. And in that case - we might as well stick with the one we know.

SF isn't the cause here.
It's just a symptom.
So could we for ONCE get a system-solution to a problem?

Bryant Again · Aug 11, 2009, 02:28 PM // 14:28

Entirely true, Upier. What do you think our first step should be?

Targren · Aug 11, 2009, 02:48 PM // 14:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

First of all, some basic remarks.
Players represent every individual that is in this game.
PvP is of no interest to this discussion.
I would divide the players that do interest us into two teams - "players" and "farmers".
Hence the quotation marks. "Players" and "playing the game" represents players and a game style that does NOT include farmers/farming.
A "farmer" is a player that puts maximizing their profits above all else, while a "player" is a player that has other priorities. While the activities they do will sometimes coincide - there is still going be a difference in how they are performed. For instance a farmer will do FoW, not only with the character that is best suited for the job, but also with the build that works best so that they can maximize their profits, while to a "player" it might be more important to do the area in question because they enjoy the area or they enjoy the guy that they are using, or they want the HoM statue, ... Profit, while still playing a role, is not as important as are other reasons to play with that guy in that area.

While I agree with almost everything else, this is where I see a huge flaw in your thinking. You're presenting a false dichotomy (players vs farmers, with solid definitions for each) and setting up an "us vs. them" tone.

Other than that, yeah, your points are very good and I agree with most of them.

Vendetta Wish · Aug 11, 2009, 04:02 PM // 16:02

Make ecto a very limited drop in UW and make up for it by having dungeon chests & Master area chests drop it and possibly make it a drop for Bosses to drop. That will leave UW for those who want the drops that do come out of there, along with the title, and some ecto. Bye Bye farmers. Ecto economy levels out!!

upier · Aug 11, 2009, 04:39 PM // 16:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Targren

While I agree with almost everything else, this is where I see a huge flaw in your thinking. You're presenting a false dichotomy (players vs farmers, with solid definitions for each) and setting up an "us vs. them" tone.

Other than that, yeah, your points are very good and I agree with most of them.

I guess it would be better to focus on the playstyle, as in "farming the game" and "playing the game", rather than labelling each player as either a "farmer" or a "player".
Still, a division of this sort has to be made since, so that we can define the relevant playerbase. The farming results just aren't in touch with "playing the game" so they seriously can not mater in defining what is achievable.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Entirely true, Upier. What do you think our first step should be?

The players' first step?
Farm the HELL out of SF. My guess is that A.Net will take the easy road and somewhere along the road nerf SF (what I find interesting is the super buff to Selfless Spirit. If we go back to a non-invincible tank, those monks will need to heal and prot their asses off! And it kinda seems that new Selfless is designed to help in that ...) which means we'll be left with content that you won't be able to participate in unless you have shitloads of cash, which you won't be able to make at that point anymore.
That's the practical advice.

Other than that - bitch and nag and throw our tiaras to the ground!
Just not necessarily about SF, but rather the issue behind it!

AtomicMew · Aug 11, 2009, 04:46 PM // 16:46

Quote:

GG contradicting yourself. You QQ like you need ectos to play the game then try and counter someone else by saying none of it's essential.

Make your mind up.

There is no contradiction in what I am saying. Please actually think about it.

S1) Guild wars is not essential, since it is a game.
S2) The goal of PvP is to become good and get high ranked.
S3) The goal of PvE is to max out titles and fill HoM.

Do you disagree with any of the above? If not, then insomuch as obtaining the goals of PvE are concerned, gold and ecto are "required." As far as PvP is concerned, there is no such requirement.

If you disagree with S1, then you are bat**** crazy. If you disagree with S2, then you are a casual PvP player. If you disagree with S3, then you are a casual PvE player and you need not concern yourself with this thread or even SF at all.

Yichi · Aug 11, 2009, 04:54 PM // 16:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kashrlyyk

Why shouldn't Protective Spirit be nerfed?

Most people here saying that permanent invincibility is bad, seem to have no problem with monks and eles being permanent invincible. Both of them even get easy infinite energy too.

Because prot spirit isn't broken. Prot spirit works perfectly fine and is not overpowered when using it in the correct setting and using it as it is intended to be used. It is only when combining it with a broken game mechanic that abusing the skill becomes so popular. Remove the broken mechanic = prot spirit fixed. Do we really need to have this discussion again as it has been proven time and time again to NOT be the problem with 55 monks/eles/necros...

SF on the other hand, is completely broken by design. Broken game mechanics only allow to further abuse this skill. Any skill that will grant a player complete immunity to any attacks/spells/conditions in the area is inherently broken in its concept, muchless its actual execution which allows the user to permenantly maintain it...